Why Does My Head Feel Full of Wool?
Feb. 16th, 2007 12:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
itsallovernowActually, despite the wooliness, I feel pretty good. I've got a glorious post-writing hangover and that hasn't happened for such a long time that it's almost a reward in of itself. It's a sign for me, I think. That the depression is abating. That I can maybe dig myself out of this emotional pothole.
Just to sum up for myself, this week saw three (count 'em 3!!!) fics, and yes, they were all plot free and pornographic, but I'd started to wonder about my writing mojo, started to wonder if I was ever gonna get that rush back, so it was a relief to find that I could still produce something.
And, truthfully, while two of them were fairly standard porn, and really not even terribly original in regards to the sex, I was really quite pleased with the threesome fic because I haven't written a complete threesome before. It's too difficult in FS, unless you really stretch the boundaries because even though everyone is pretty sexed up, it's nearly impossible to imagine a threesome in the timeline involving Aeryn or John because neither of them shares well at all. I think![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
rubberneck's Whetting the Appetite is the one that works best for me - in part because it's Feldman, so it's funny and brilliant and hot, but also because the dynamics and emotional reactions make sense in context.
And that's kind of funny in of itself. I mean here's this fandom that's got cannon bi-sexuality, omnisexuality, lots of sex sexuality, tentacles, prehensile tongues, body-swapping, prostitution, sex for the sake of sex, sex for the sake of love, voyeurism, love quadrangles, muppet sex, cloned John Crichtons, Chiana in general, phallic symbols run riot and Ben Browder's ass, and all things considered, we're pretty tame as a collective in what we've produced. (I also mean this in terms of quality porn. I've read some of the kinkier stuff that seemed to be part of the earlier days of the fandom, but mostly it's crappy writing and isn't really true to the characters).
We also rarely take advantage of the Two John's possibility - the few instances that have used this have been HIGHLY enjoyable, but what surprises me frankly is that, as a fandom, we didn't get... dirtier with this. I'm not sure if it's a matter of being sort of more invested in the emotional lives of the characters (because really, having two John's didn't inspire lust so much as headaches and angst) or if straying too far from canon was a problem (and I get that, I totally get that), but really, a prime opportunity for fairly dirty sex and I don't think we took full advantage.
And maybe it's the threesome problem, or the porn problem. Because getting too dirty kind of rubs off on the characters in ways that we may not be comfortable with, and I get that as well. It clings to them, but I don't think that has to be bad. If you look atrubberneck's Scientist, Astronaut, Nymphomaniac: The Nine Lives of John Crichton, you get a great example of hot, fairly kinky (in the body swapped, having warmed up with a PK dildo instead of fruit kind of way) that manages to stay in character beautifully (even with the characters in each others bodies) and we don't lose anything. We aren't embarrassed, we don't lose our regard for them, and maybe it's because Feldman is the kind of writer she is and can pull that off, or maybe it's just because the particulars of the canon mesh well with the fic and it works for us as readers and writers.
I also think that it comes back to the concept of writing straight (in the PWP, not strictly male/female definition) porn, versus fic with a pornish side dish. I admit, I don't read stories that don't mesh with my view of the characters, no matter how hot. And that includes pairings that I like. But, I'm also willing to let the authors sell me on the set up. It's just, it takes more to sell me these days, perhaps.
And then there's the question of authorial... self, I think. I don't read a lot of other fandoms - I'll generally read things by people I know if it's outside my fandom, but even that is subject to my generalized interest in the fandom. For instance, I'll read some SGA, but no SPN unless it's a crossover. But I think that feeling of putting yourself out there that inevitably follows posting fic (as opposed to Original work which is a different thing entirely) is even more concentrated when writing sex. Posting fic at all is an admittance of things: of interest in a show, of enough concentrated taking over your brain interest to put words to paper, and that in itself can be something to get over. Add writing sex to that mix and you're opening yourself up to speculation. It's vulnerability times two.
How much is this the author? How much is really the characters? What will people think? And the truth is, it's a mix. With luck, the author is following the characters on a path that they would take anyway - or a potential path. But, the author is still going to follow along a tragectory that pushes his/her buttons as well. We wouldn't have fic, if not. So there's always going to be a combo of character motivation/I think this is hot that accompanies any piece of fic and writing about sex is a way of saying I think this would be hot. And that's a scary thing to admit to a group of people that we mostly know by icons and not by faces.
I rememberlaurashapiro ( I think, and if not, apologies) talking about the absence of anal sex in most het fic, and I do find it interesting that while fandom at large is completely comfortable writing about men fucking each other and the explicit details of that, we rarely address the "kinkier", for want of a better word, aspects of male/female sexual activities. Is it too much of a reflection? Too removed, too close? Hmmm. (I'm not even talking about preference because I get that slash writers find slash hot, but it's still an interesting dichotomy).
Writing threesome fic, for me, was both terrifying and exhilerating. In part, the story itself was a rush. It made sense to me immediately and unfolded in a way that stories sometimes do - like getting hit by a freight train, fast and furious and so desperate and at the end I wanted to go out and get laid and smoke cigarettes because the whole glourious fucking writing rush had taken me by storm and I was at work and there was no one I could tell.
But, the sex itself also made me kind of breathless because I was pushing my own boundaries of things I normally write about. I usually write fairly traditional sex, and this certainly wasn't anything terribly kinky, but it was beyond what I normally covered, normally explored in part because I haven't wanted to put that aspect of myself - as author, as reader, as ME - out there. And because it was part of a 'verse that I've formed and followed, running parallel to real canon, and that's breathless and scary in of itself (because you always wonder what people think, how they perceive what you choose to write about). And truthfully, I don't see a lot of fic out there where the girl is the one who's the recipient of threesome largesse, where she's both a conduit and connection between the men and the reason for the sex. And I guess I'd like to see more of that, but it also was the story that I wanted to tell in this context, the story that felt in some ways inevitable in the 'verse I'd set up.
Hmm, I guess I'd like some thoughts from other people on their own vulnerabilities. What do you most worry about when you post fic? Write fic? Write fic with excessive sex? What scares and thrills you about writing a story? Writing and posting what you've written? How much do you let what turns you on influence what you write, and when do you feel like you are doing the characters a service and still satisfying yourself? What would you like to write - sex or plotwise - that you maybe won't because you're worried how it'll be perceived by your audience?
ETA As a corollary, I'd also like to know people's favorite "dirty" fic. Becauselaurashapiro makes me think that it's my reading list, not fandom in general and now I'm curious:) I'm obviously going to include Scientist... on this list, and I sometimes wonder how rubberneck feels knowing that something she wrote is that much of a turn on to that many people - people she knows and loves, nonetheless as well as strangers:)
Just to sum up for myself, this week saw three (count 'em 3!!!) fics, and yes, they were all plot free and pornographic, but I'd started to wonder about my writing mojo, started to wonder if I was ever gonna get that rush back, so it was a relief to find that I could still produce something.
And, truthfully, while two of them were fairly standard porn, and really not even terribly original in regards to the sex, I was really quite pleased with the threesome fic because I haven't written a complete threesome before. It's too difficult in FS, unless you really stretch the boundaries because even though everyone is pretty sexed up, it's nearly impossible to imagine a threesome in the timeline involving Aeryn or John because neither of them shares well at all. I think
rubberneck's Whetting the Appetite is the one that works best for me - in part because it's Feldman, so it's funny and brilliant and hot, but also because the dynamics and emotional reactions make sense in context.And that's kind of funny in of itself. I mean here's this fandom that's got cannon bi-sexuality, omnisexuality, lots of sex sexuality, tentacles, prehensile tongues, body-swapping, prostitution, sex for the sake of sex, sex for the sake of love, voyeurism, love quadrangles, muppet sex, cloned John Crichtons, Chiana in general, phallic symbols run riot and Ben Browder's ass, and all things considered, we're pretty tame as a collective in what we've produced. (I also mean this in terms of quality porn. I've read some of the kinkier stuff that seemed to be part of the earlier days of the fandom, but mostly it's crappy writing and isn't really true to the characters).
We also rarely take advantage of the Two John's possibility - the few instances that have used this have been HIGHLY enjoyable, but what surprises me frankly is that, as a fandom, we didn't get... dirtier with this. I'm not sure if it's a matter of being sort of more invested in the emotional lives of the characters (because really, having two John's didn't inspire lust so much as headaches and angst) or if straying too far from canon was a problem (and I get that, I totally get that), but really, a prime opportunity for fairly dirty sex and I don't think we took full advantage.
And maybe it's the threesome problem, or the porn problem. Because getting too dirty kind of rubs off on the characters in ways that we may not be comfortable with, and I get that as well. It clings to them, but I don't think that has to be bad. If you look at
rubberneck's Scientist, Astronaut, Nymphomaniac: The Nine Lives of John Crichton, you get a great example of hot, fairly kinky (in the body swapped, having warmed up with a PK dildo instead of fruit kind of way) that manages to stay in character beautifully (even with the characters in each others bodies) and we don't lose anything. We aren't embarrassed, we don't lose our regard for them, and maybe it's because Feldman is the kind of writer she is and can pull that off, or maybe it's just because the particulars of the canon mesh well with the fic and it works for us as readers and writers.I also think that it comes back to the concept of writing straight (in the PWP, not strictly male/female definition) porn, versus fic with a pornish side dish. I admit, I don't read stories that don't mesh with my view of the characters, no matter how hot. And that includes pairings that I like. But, I'm also willing to let the authors sell me on the set up. It's just, it takes more to sell me these days, perhaps.
And then there's the question of authorial... self, I think. I don't read a lot of other fandoms - I'll generally read things by people I know if it's outside my fandom, but even that is subject to my generalized interest in the fandom. For instance, I'll read some SGA, but no SPN unless it's a crossover. But I think that feeling of putting yourself out there that inevitably follows posting fic (as opposed to Original work which is a different thing entirely) is even more concentrated when writing sex. Posting fic at all is an admittance of things: of interest in a show, of enough concentrated taking over your brain interest to put words to paper, and that in itself can be something to get over. Add writing sex to that mix and you're opening yourself up to speculation. It's vulnerability times two.
How much is this the author? How much is really the characters? What will people think? And the truth is, it's a mix. With luck, the author is following the characters on a path that they would take anyway - or a potential path. But, the author is still going to follow along a tragectory that pushes his/her buttons as well. We wouldn't have fic, if not. So there's always going to be a combo of character motivation/I think this is hot that accompanies any piece of fic and writing about sex is a way of saying I think this would be hot. And that's a scary thing to admit to a group of people that we mostly know by icons and not by faces.
I remember
laurashapiro ( I think, and if not, apologies) talking about the absence of anal sex in most het fic, and I do find it interesting that while fandom at large is completely comfortable writing about men fucking each other and the explicit details of that, we rarely address the "kinkier", for want of a better word, aspects of male/female sexual activities. Is it too much of a reflection? Too removed, too close? Hmmm. (I'm not even talking about preference because I get that slash writers find slash hot, but it's still an interesting dichotomy).Writing threesome fic, for me, was both terrifying and exhilerating. In part, the story itself was a rush. It made sense to me immediately and unfolded in a way that stories sometimes do - like getting hit by a freight train, fast and furious and so desperate and at the end I wanted to go out and get laid and smoke cigarettes because the whole glourious fucking writing rush had taken me by storm and I was at work and there was no one I could tell.
But, the sex itself also made me kind of breathless because I was pushing my own boundaries of things I normally write about. I usually write fairly traditional sex, and this certainly wasn't anything terribly kinky, but it was beyond what I normally covered, normally explored in part because I haven't wanted to put that aspect of myself - as author, as reader, as ME - out there. And because it was part of a 'verse that I've formed and followed, running parallel to real canon, and that's breathless and scary in of itself (because you always wonder what people think, how they perceive what you choose to write about). And truthfully, I don't see a lot of fic out there where the girl is the one who's the recipient of threesome largesse, where she's both a conduit and connection between the men and the reason for the sex. And I guess I'd like to see more of that, but it also was the story that I wanted to tell in this context, the story that felt in some ways inevitable in the 'verse I'd set up.
Hmm, I guess I'd like some thoughts from other people on their own vulnerabilities. What do you most worry about when you post fic? Write fic? Write fic with excessive sex? What scares and thrills you about writing a story? Writing and posting what you've written? How much do you let what turns you on influence what you write, and when do you feel like you are doing the characters a service and still satisfying yourself? What would you like to write - sex or plotwise - that you maybe won't because you're worried how it'll be perceived by your audience?
ETA As a corollary, I'd also like to know people's favorite "dirty" fic. Because
laurashapiro makes me think that it's my reading list, not fandom in general and now I'm curious:) I'm obviously going to include Scientist... on this list, and I sometimes wonder how rubberneck feels knowing that something she wrote is that much of a turn on to that many people - people she knows and loves, nonetheless as well as strangers:)
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 09:08 pm (UTC)When I wrote erotic fanfiction, I wasn't afraid of anything. I had finally landed among similarly perverted peers, and I felt like nothing was off the table. As long as I felt that my dramatic stories were sufficiently in character (never stressed that for the comic ones, for some reason), I was perfectly happy to porn up my favorite fictional people in as many permutations as turned me on. I did S/M, B/D, anal, voyeurism, humiliation, ambiguous consent, sex with love, sex with hate, sex of rage and pain and most especially sex involving power dynamics. There were certain boundaries I didn't cross, but they were because the things on the other side of the line didn't turn me on, not because I was afraid of what other people thought.
Yes, that was me bitching about the lack of anal in het fic. And in f/f too! ::grumble::
I always gobbled up the fiction of the most sexually fearless writers, even if I couldn't necessarily go everywhere they went. I did notice, in my brief time reading FS fic, that only Feldman seemed particularly interested in plumbing the depths that in, say, XF or BtVS, were the bread and butter of the kinkier fic communities. It's a shame for a number of reasons that FS doesn't have more really boundary-pushing smut, because I think FS is one of the most progressive shows ever in terms of sex roles and liberated thinking in general.
Hm. I should go read your fic now, shouldn't I? (:
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 09:55 pm (UTC)I did notice, in my brief time reading FS fic, that only Feldman seemed particularly interested in plumbing the depths that in, say, XF or BtVS, were the bread and butter of the kinkier fic communities.
I think this means that I'm not reading in the right fandoms:) But then, it makes me wonder what it is in the particular fandoms I've read that keeps them fairly ... chaste in terms of boundaries. (And while I read almost everything in XF, the stories really had to nail the characterization in order for me to buy the sexual exploits as story. I'd still happily read the kinkier stuff, but there was one story and damned if I can remember the title or author, that had Scully having a lot of difficulty orgasming, about how much work it took to bring her off (and it was well done and realistic, and about other things than that aspect) and I found it probably the most realistic depiction of their sexual relationship that I'd run across).
It's a shame for a number of reasons that FS doesn't have more really boundary-pushing smut, because I think FS is one of the most progressive shows ever in terms of sex roles and liberated thinking in general.
Agreed. I think it goes back to the author factor, in that focusing on the emotional connections of the characters often doesn't lead to exploration of boundaries in sexual situations. But it could. I think there's also that fear of straddling the "fantasy" line of the story/fantasy aspect of fic. Too much sexual exploration could fall too far over onto the fantasy and not enough onto the storytelling side of justification of fic.
God, now I just want to write more kinky Farscape porn:) For one, I feel like the fact that Aeryn is a soldier without real sexual hangups wasn't something well explored by most of the fic writing population. And, well, dammit. She deserved more sex!! Snort. And that's definitely my voice falling far more into what I want than what story I want to tell:)
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 11:03 pm (UTC)I read widely in XF, and while Mulder-Scully was my drug of choice, I found very little erotica about them that resonated with me -- that's why I ended up writing my own (my first forays into fic, and ye gods it's mostly awful). The erotic stories in XF that *did* tend to resonate with me were Mulder/Krycek or Scully-Skinner -- pairings for which I found no canonical support, but which somehow lent themselves, for whatever reason, to more interesting (to my mind) sexual adventures.
Re that fantasy line: I never approached fanfic as anything other than wish-fulfillment at its core. I value excellent writing, but I never read fic the way I read literature. It served wholly different purposes for me. So while I can understand the point of view that says "keep your personal kinks out of my fic," I was more of the "bring it on" school of thought. (: I begin to suspect my playmates were just dirtier-minded than yours. (:
The story about Scully's orgasmic difficulties sounds great! Too few people write about that sort of thing. I think one of the reasons my stories were never that popular was that I was mostly interested in showing sex as messy, funny, and frequently clumsy and unglamorous: IOW, the way it often is in real life. My very first beta recoiled in horror when I attempted to describe the atmosphere inside Scully's pantyhose as swamplike. I still find this a rich and delicious image, but it's not one that suits the general taste.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 11:17 pm (UTC)Yeah, that sums it up far better than I could have. It's not the kinkiness, it's the exploration, the way sex and sexuality reflect or refract the things we understand about the characters, that they understand about themselves.
Too few people write about that sort of thing. I think one of the reasons my stories were never that popular was that I was mostly interested in showing sex as messy, funny, and frequently clumsy and unglamorous: IOW, the way it often is in real life.
I adore stories that show sex as ridiculous and funny and messy and still, ultimately sexy for those involved.
The story about Scully's orgasmic difficulties sounds great! I so wish I could remember who wrote this. It was really about the sort of difficult domesticity they were trying to create, how much work they were to each other at the end of the day (or at least that's what I remember).
So while I can understand the point of view that says "keep your personal kinks out of my fic," I was more of the "bring it on" school of thought. (: I begin to suspect my playmates were just dirtier-minded than yours. (: There's a fine line there, I think, between wanting good stuff to get you off (emotionally or sexually since that's what I value most in fic, I think. The pay off, the climax of it if you will) and betraying the characters and the best stuff does both, in whatever way it can:) (And sadly, while many of my direct playmates can be just this dirty, they refuse to willy-nilly write my demands. And, on the whole, the FS writers that can really write were exploring the emotional porn (and the big Stories with a capital S) - and I mean that in the best way possible, while a lot of the... hmmm... second tier writers were all about the soft and gushy side of J/A sex. Very rarely did the twain meet. Although, when they did (i.e. Feldman, et al) it was fucking fantastic:)
The erotic stories in XF that *did* tend to resonate with me were Mulder/Krycek or Scully-Skinner -- pairings for which I found no canonical support, but which somehow lent themselves, for whatever reason, to more interesting (to my mind) sexual adventures.
I think this is probably not all that unusual. I think it goes back to the sexual activities "rubbing off" on our perception of the characters and pairings in which we're most invested. Some of the shenanigans seem too intimate with our main pairings, but perfectly reasonable for alternate pairings. Like not wanting to hear about your parents having sex, but being fine with knowing about your cousins (actually, I don't want to know about my cousins' sex lives either, so that metaphor works better in theory:)
no subject
Date: 2007-02-19 05:47 pm (UTC)I admit I just don't get this at all. (: My main pairings are the ones I really want to see completely naked, emotionally and physically. I want to understand what's driving them, who they really are, and how that manifests itself in their sexuality. The more I love a character, the more I want to peel them like an onion.
And I would have thought that most of fandom -- certainly most of the fans I have hung around with -- would share those feelings. But I note that the community of writers you and
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 09:50 pm (UTC)It's been a while, but I don't recall it feeling kinky ('cause I have other pairings and circumstances for kink) so much as careful. It was an experiment, trying to be true to the emotional relationship as the three maneuvered around each other to be absolutely fair and honest, without favortism.
I remember you betaing, and encouraging me to post it, too, which was very helpful.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 09:58 pm (UTC)I'm very fond of that particular story:) And yeah, getting a threesome going between the two John's is such a navigation because they'd have been so... pissy that there;s like a hundred pages of backstory necessary just to get them there and get 'em naked.
cause I have other pairings and circumstances for kink I think this is probably the key to what I'm asking. That what gets us off is so unique, and not always what we want to read or write. (And then, sometimes it is:)
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 11:08 pm (UTC)I'm not all that bothered by my fic revealing my preferences, or else I wouldn't post at all. However, there are things I've written that will never see the light of day, because they're too dark or too twisted or too personal. There's a gray zone that every author has to feel out for herself on what's shareable, and what's too much me for others to be trusted to accept.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-16 11:17 pm (UTC)FS and porn
Date: 2007-02-17 01:36 am (UTC)*laughs* Yeah. That. *shudders*
(Ain't it great?*g*)
About FS and porn:
I hesitate to get involved in this sort of convo at all, because I've seen it degrade into "slash is better! het is uky! gen is boring!" baiting just too often.
And while generalizations are both possible and occasionally appropriate, I can't speak for any other fangirl - and certainly not for any other author - besides myself. Extrapolating motivation and influence and intent from the printed word is...beyond baseless, and well into stupid.
But this fangirl is a (she thinks, now, finally, after playing at it for going on six years) gen writer who can write het and can write slash and will read and enjoy both (all three? something like that). This fangirl never would have stayed in FS if FS had been the sort of uber-slash-porn-fest that, say, due South was/is. (And I read and liked a *lot* of dS slash.)
The porn and the sexy wasn't what I loved about FS, and it wasn't what I went looking for in fic. That's continued on throughout the other fandoms I've followed.
I'm not in it for the porn, I'm not in it for the sexual freedom, I'm not in it for the turn-on. That there's stuff that's hot is side dish, not the main course.
The sense of the erotic that seems to appeal to you and LS and others isn't the way I see the characters, and sex isn't the forum I use to interact with the people around me in RL, and I'm not comfortable, and don't enjoy, using sex as the primary means for my pov characters to interact with other people.
Beyond that, I find that I have a range of forms of sexual interactions that I find hot, and that many of the "variations" listed as "kinky" are, frankly, turn-offs. So I (me) didn't see the people writing (and enjoying) those things as "fearless" or "exploratory" - I saw them as a) weird and b) disturbed. Still do, depending on the kink involved.
(Yes, judgmental. This is a thing I know.)
(Continued on next rock.)
- hg
Writing
Date: 2007-02-17 01:39 am (UTC)Dude. This is me with gen fic. I get this - the rush, the exhilaration, the oh, god, my wrists ache and my ass aches and I can't see straight, because I'm still whereever the story is. Yes, like that.
Well, except for the smoke cigarettes part. *g*
What do you most worry about when you post fic? Write fic?
Being true to the characters, and to canon. Which, of course, is shaded by what *I* see in canon. It's not like I can write with someone else's brain, I have to write what*I* see.
Write fic with excessive sex?
Pretty much every time I write something with any sex in it, I'm arguing with myself about pandering to the mainstream fanfic audience, which (imo) is here for the porn and frankly cares about characterization and real world realism far less. I am not going to write a story that has sex in a way that is going to "out kink" the smut that's already out there. So any boundaries I push would only be my own, and, imo, I myself go darker and scarier and more vulnerable in gen directions than I do in sexual ones. So if I put sex in a story, I'm fighting with myself about why, and trying to make sure it's real to the story, and not in there because (historically) the stories I post with porn have a wider audience and a better reception than the gen ones.
What scares and thrills you about writing a story? Writing and posting what you've written?
As I said, I'm more scared of opening up myself on gen issues than I am on sexual ones. The gen ones - family, responsibility, damage to other people, religion - I've got much more to lose, there.
How much do you let what turns you on influence what you write, and when do you feel like you are doing the characters a service and still satisfying yourself?
I *really* try to stay away from writing my desires - sexual or gen - into characters if it doesn't fit. I like to think I'm telling the story of Rygel, not of me. Of this PK soldier/pilot named Aeryn Sun, not me.
Of course, other people have different perceptions of the characters, and while I can stand here and tell you that there is no canon evidence to support (and a lot to counter) any sexual attraction between John and D'Argo, it doesn't mean that other people see it that way. And other people have a wider tolerance for wish fufillment in fic.
In fact, I think it could be said that nearly all of us have a higher tolerance for wish-fufillment fic that matches our own wishes than we do for wish-fufillment that hinges on a turn-off and not a matching kink.
And here is likely where I should say that so much smut is about the smut, and not about the people engaged, or why they're even having sex in the first place, that it's a turn off for me. Brains and hearts are sexier than the shoulders, even.
What would you like to write - sex or plotwise - that you maybe won't because you're worried how it'll be perceived by your audience?
...I'm not sure if how it'll be perceived is the right phrasing for me. I still fret over Mother of Horses, because, damnit, that was incest rape-fic and I still get fb every once in a while on that one, going, oh, that was so hot, are you going to write more?
So perhaps how it will be perceived is less of a concern for me than can I tell this story *properly*.
As for what people think of me because of something I've written - like I said, my perception is that I'm risking more in gen than I am in smut.
Obviously, YMMV, and I think you've probably aimed your questions at other people. And I went on for *way* too long. Thank you for letting me ramble.
- hg
Re: Writing
Date: 2007-02-17 08:12 am (UTC)I write a lot about sex, but this rush isn't unique to that process. It's story man. It's always about story. I just happen to like writing stories that use sex as a method of communication. But it's not a given, and that rush is fantastic no matter what.
Pretty much every time I write something with any sex in it, I'm arguing with myself about pandering to the mainstream fanfic audience, which (imo) is here for the porn and frankly cares about characterization and real world realism far less. As a reader, I care about the characterization. World realism? Hmmm. Not so much. Realism within the world the characters inhabit? Yeah, probably.
As I said, I'm more scared of opening up myself on gen issues than I am on sexual ones. The gen ones - family, responsibility, damage to other people, religion - I've got much more to lose, there.
Dude, I'm saving all that (unintentionally, of course) for the original fic. I wish I could work it out in fic where it wouldn't blindside me. Where I already know how and why I relate to the characters and can funnel it through their legitimate reactions instead of second guess my OC's, wondering whether it's me or them.
In fact, I think it could be said that nearly all of us have a higher tolerance for wish-fufillment fic that matches our own wishes than we do for wish-fufillment that hinges on a turn-off and not a matching kink.
Ain't that the truth:)
And here is likely where I should say that so much smut is about the smut, and not about the people engaged, or why they're even having sex in the first place, that it's a turn off for me. Brains and hearts are sexier than the shoulders, even.
I don't know if I believe that, but I'm not sure I'd argue it either. Smut that's about the characters turns me on, smut that could be anyone with the character faces pasted on? Yeah, not so much. But so much of that is YMMV. I've read plenty of very tame, very reasonable smut that does nothing for me, not because a lack of skills or particular adverbs, but because there's just a tone, a set of assumptions that don't track with my understanding of the characters. But I read in a limited set of fandoms and within a limited set of interests.
My habits are definitely my own.
As for what people think of me because of something I've written - like I said, my perception is that I'm risking more in gen than I am in smut.
I find that fascinating, and - from what I know of you - not terribly surprising. I find that you are willing to put yourself out there as standing by your beliefs and principals within a community that is not necessarily in line with said things, and still... be, unabashedly who you are. It does not surprise me that the same sort of conviction applies to your writing and the themes therein.
I'd imagine a same sense of vulnerability in writing about any of the themes of family and responsability that other people find in writing about sex or friendship or loss.
And dude, I aimed this at anyone open to discussing these things:) And I'm thrilled that you dropped by to do so. I can always count on you to make me think, and I'm looking to writers to think about these things, and who better than a writer I respect?
Re: Writing
Date: 2007-02-17 05:49 pm (UTC)*nods* Yes, and on re-read you said this, pretty much, in the original post. Sorry 'bout that.
About reader prefs on characterization vs porn...it's hard for me to talk (or even think) about reader reaction to different pieces of fanfic without getting wrapt up in values of BNF vs new author, of monster big fandom vs minor obscure fandom, of OCs vs OTPs - all of those things weigh in on each other, up to and including day of the week when things get posted. And after considering all those variables, we then we get into quality of the story, and what "appeals to the masses" vs what the "right sort" of people appreciate in their fanfic. And I find myself trembling on the edge of adopting a snobbish elitism in my judgment of fans and fic. Totally not helpful.
And in an area as varied as fanfic, how specific can we get, and how general, when we talk about the appeal different stories have for different people? What's the most useful range to use, when considering the appeal of, say, a domestic bondage fic - that lots of people who already like domestic bondage stories liked that story, that many of those found it hot, on a purely visceral level, that many people who liked domestic bondage found it changed the way they thought about their particular kink, even if the story was only moderately hot, that most people who were into domestic bondage found the story dreadfully vanilla and boring, but man, the "mainstream" audience just ate it up with a spoon, and domestic bondage themes started creeping out into mainstream fic?
There's also a whole debate going on about morality in story-telling, about what sorts of stories should be told, about what sorts of story-telling should be done. And where exactly porn/erotica lies in this, I'm still not sure. (I have an easy answer to that, but I'm not sure if it's the best answer.)
I do think that there's some value in looking at different fics and why they appeal - hot porn for this one, boundary-pushing on that one, characterization for a third. Specifics, not generalizations. But as soon as we do that, we're back to acknowledging YMMV, and arguing about the level of impact a piece of writing can have, and if writing matters, if what we read matters.
I wish I could work it out in fic where it wouldn't blindside me. Where I already know how and why I relate to the characters and can funnel it through their legitimate reactions instead of second guess my OC's, wondering whether it's me or them.
HA! I find it easier to deal with those things through fic, because, as you say, I do have to make the issue or theme organic to the character (and the universe) rather than just an author stand-in. Which makes me think out the issue/theme, which is never bad, even if I'm forced at the end to admit that any logical or rational basis for my reaction to a particular theme is secondary to the emotional one.
I'd imagine a same sense of vulnerability in writing about any of the themes of family and responsability that other people find in writing about sex or friendship or loss.
*nods* This is right back to YMMV, yes? My vulnerable places are not yours, what frightens me to share might not frighten you, and vice versa. And, beyond that, perhaps, one should ask how sure am I that this doesn't frighten me? Denial and repression - it's there for all of us, I think, both in sex issues and in gen ones.
Again, thanks for letting me have the space to think these things out.
- hg
Re: FS and porn
Date: 2007-02-17 08:00 am (UTC)The sense of the erotic that seems to appeal to you and LS and others isn't the way I see the characters, and sex isn't the forum I use to interact with the people around me in RL, and I'm not comfortable, and don't enjoy, using sex as the primary means for my pov characters to interact with other people.
Hmmm. I think... well, I certainly don't use sex to interact with most of the people around me. But I don't exclude it as a possibility. But I do think that it's a way that people do interact, and I think that in a 'verse where it's a recognized thing, ignoring it isn't always interesting or useful. But, I also agree that sex=interaction as a default is not really a storytellers friend. And I say that as someone who very much enjoys looking at the way that characters interact through sex. But, at the same time, I want to follow it through in a way that feels true to the characters and to their interactions (unless I just want the pornographic aspect), but generally, when I love a story that's based around sex it's because the author got the characters so right that the whole thing goes to a new level. I won't read poorly characterized porn any more than I'll read poorly characterized anything.
But, I agree, it's a matter of what you want to explore and there's nothing that says that sex has to be a part of that.
And while I might, in some way, crave dirtier stories in the FS fandom. I wouldn't trade anything for the stuff that we got - the things that are rich and complex and deal with the myriad aspects of all of the characters and this place they've found themselves in.
've seen it degrade into "slash is better! het is uky! gen is boring!" baiting just too often. Yeah, and that's not a debate I'm intersted in entertaining:) At all.
Re: FS and porn
Date: 2007-02-17 04:40 pm (UTC)*nods* I think that there needs to be a balance. While imo fandom as a whole is skewed towards sex/romance to a degree that I find unappealing and annoying, it doesn't mean that I don't think it's ooc and ...false? (incorrect? something that rhymes with wrong) for a person to write Chiana as an asexual being. Pip's just that way, and it would be poor writing, imo, to ignore that part of her characterization.
(Don't get me started on how canon screwed up PK sexual tendencies, even before the embryo-in-stasis bit. I would go on to v. boring lengths, and I'm generally of the "if it's in canon it's true" school.)
I won't read poorly characterized porn any more than I'll read poorly characterized anything.
*chews lip* I am not sure I can say the same - I find myself reading and enjoying minor character fic that is shakey in many aspects. OTP fic, on the other hand, I hold to a really high standard. Characterization, though, seems to be one of the last things that I will let slide, reading-enjoyment wise, well behind technical writing skills. So, maybe I mostly agree.
I wouldn't trade anything for the stuff that we got - the things that are rich and complex and deal with the myriad aspects of all of the characters and this place they've found themselves in.
*nodnodnod* And by the same token, even for OTPs I dislike, and for no-holds-barred smut, if the author nails the characters and gives a slant on the universe that resonates with me, then, gah, I'll take the smut and ask for more.
Yeah, and that's not a debate I'm intersted in entertaining.
I've slid past convos like this one in the past, and will again - I felt comfortable here, in your space, that I could try to explain my pov and have it taken on the merits, and not worry about things sliding into grandstanding. *shrugs* I also expect that you'd call me on it if I started frothing at the mouth. *g*
- hg
A fic
Date: 2007-02-18 12:20 am (UTC)No Easy Way Down, by mosca. I thought the story did a hair more telling than showing in John's emotional journey, and let the sex substitute for other interaction (or only showed the sex when there was more going on) but it's funny and warm-hearted and smutty and fairly true to character, I thought.
- hg
Re: A fic
Date: 2007-02-18 08:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-02-17 06:36 am (UTC)I worry about committing my ideas to writing the way they came into my head. Alot of the time the inspiration and the realization of those ideas come into conlifct and the end result is a story that never finds its way out of the box.
I guess I let my preferences have alot to do with what I write, but I always try to remain true to the characters in the process. I've written slash and experimented with a threesome or two (one of which I wrote some time ago and I'm still a little embarrased by) and find it's challenging. But I don't worry about how something is received; there's an audience for everything and in the end, it's more important that I'm happy with what I've written.
Whatever you write, the only catch is it's got to seem plausible on some level. For example, how could you get both Crichtons together into something kinky without completely ignoring their f'ed up issues with one another? Not an easy one to resolve. I tried it, but I'm sure there are others who are better suited to that challenge.
Right now I'm stalling over a shippy fic - ship is not my thing, but I'd like to do it for a friend. I feel horribly unqualified, but I'm determined to work out the issues and post the story.
Writing sex is something I'm still learning; I'd like to get the biggest bang for my buck, build the sexual tension with subtlety, but I find I'm a little intimidated writing sex scenes at all.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-17 11:50 am (UTC)Specifically Farscape, or any fandom?
And - favourite singular? How can you be so cruel? *g*
no subject
Date: 2007-02-17 06:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-02-17 07:05 pm (UTC)I'd especially point at Nerve for fantastic female-POV het.
Any of
Okay, I'm noticing a theme here. My "porn" button is apparently located immediately next to my "characterization" button and usually cannot be mashed separately. Recently, someone linked me to a QAF story, and I could tell it was incredibly well-written but I couldn't find it hot because I didn't have a clue who these people were. Any potential hotness for me was on the other side of a pane of glass.
Also, I have a kink for realism. Awkwardness, condom discussions, imperfectness, negotiations - it all makes things closer to home and therefore, in my head, much dirtier.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-17 03:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-02-17 09:05 pm (UTC)What do you most worry about when you post fic?
I only started writing fic last year, so it still feels very new (especially since I write very slowly). I think I'm still at the stage where my first worry when posting is that nobody will notice at all and it will be as if a tree falls in the forest with no-one around to hear it, etc. This helps counterbalance the terror of exposure.
How much do you let what turns you on influence what you write, and when do you feel like you are doing the characters a service and still satisfying yourself?
Hmm. If I'm writing two characters having sex (sex which is "onscreen" in the story and which I want to be hot, anyway), it's generally going to be because I find the thought of those two together hot and interesting in some way. So the basic turn-on is more-or-less inevitably there, I think - if they didn't seem to hit certain dynamics that interest me, I probably wouldn't be writing them in the first place.
On the other hand, the character logic can pull in a whole lot of stuff which I personally don't find hot off the bat - knifeplay in fic generally evokes something between deep disinterest and mild squickage from me personally, but I wrote it in Under Every Green Tree, because it felt right for the characters and their history and their dynamic at that point.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-18 08:46 am (UTC)I like seeing those turning point moments, when you feel like the characters are really leading you as opposed to vice versa and you find yourself unexpectedly... aroused... by it (whether emotionally, sexually, authorally:)
no subject
Date: 2007-02-20 07:39 pm (UTC)I'm not sure if that's because the show was so willing to "go there" with the tropes you've already listed, or if it's fannish osmosis, which would actually explain quite a bit. No one delves into overly graphic or kinky sex because it's not done? Because it hasn't been done yet, and it'll be seen as OOC?
To answer your questions:
What do you most worry about when you post fic? Write fic? Write fic with excessive sex?
I'm just now getting comfortable enough to write and post more graphic sex, but there's still that uncertainty that settles there, even as I'm writing it right now, of whether or not people will read it, or what they'll think if they do. Hmm, though I do realize the latter is more of a personal issue I need to get over.
Additionally, as the writer, I have to be turned on by what I'm creating and who I'm using to create it with. If it's not fun for me, if I don't get any enjoyment out of it, whether it's about sex or violence or everything in between, then I won't bother writing it. Likewise, it's not about trying to seeing how many kinks I can fit into a story or adjust to a character. For me, it's about taking what I interpret about the characters and expanding it, and yes, even pushing the boundaries without making them unrecognizable.
What would you like to write - sex or plotwise - that you maybe won't because you're worried how it'll be perceived by your audience?
I'm working on a voyeurism and masturbation fic right now, so it'll be interesting to see how the audience reacts to that. FS fandom could do with more masturbation fic, I'm just sayin'.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-21 08:41 pm (UTC)the porn I go back to again and again, these days, is jennyo's Roslinslash (the NC-17 ones). but that has perhaps more to do with how completely (this) Roslin does it for me than the quality or kinkiness of the porn.