Must Sleep!!

[itsallovernow]

So that whole writing about people having sex with themselves thing is sort of addicting... it's intimate, voyeuristic, and personal in a way that's very different than writing about people having sex with each other.

What it also got me to thinking of was how much I like the Five Things theme - kissing, masturbating, dying, things that didn't happen. It's just such a nice way to explore character and possibility. So what other five things would people like to see, like to write about?

There is discussion going on, both at cofax7 and at coffeeandink about the Tiptree Awards which are given to SF or Fantasy that best explores concepts of gender. Cofax is looking for fic that does that, but it's gotten me to thinking about character, about my own fandoms, and gender in that context.

Because my two great fannish loves (and by that I mostly mean fandoms in which I read more than the occasional fic) - X-Files and Farscape - both challenge ideas of gender by "swapping" the gendered identities of the two leads, then redefining what those genders mean and how they interact. This doesn't mean that either Mulder or Crichton are girly, but they embody the emotional center of the story, the one focused on emotional reactions not logic. Aeryn and Scully, in different ways, are coded as masculine - logical, practical, reacting based on thought and not emotion. Aeryn's the soldier,the protector, sees sex as an activity not an intimacy, has little use for love. Scully's a scientist, a better shot, a clearer head. And while these qualities shift and change and are redefined and expanded, we initially start with characters who are flipping our typical/traditional gender roles on their heads.

So what does this have to do with fic? Well, it's no secret that we all have our own versions of the characters, and for me, there's no faster turn off in fic than to take these fabulous "masculinized" women, and make them weepy little girls, to put them back in those boxes of traditional female roles without celebrates what makes them interesting and fun and exciting.

This doesn't mean I don't think that "girly" female characters are interesting and exciting. One of the best things about Buffy, about Veronica Mars, about these women is how easy it would be to underestimate them and what a mistake it is. I love that Buffy kicked all sorts of ass and still liked nice shoes.

However, the tendency in fic to try and make the not-girly women into traditional girls is something I find frustrating and off-putting and it's put me off stories by competent writers. I've grown so oversensitive to it that I'll stop reading almost immediately. And the same is true for taking the masculine coding, and suddenly making them weepy little girls. So maybe what bothers me is the assumption of weakness, of over-emotionality, of irriational reactions that warp otherwise reasonable characters behaviors into something that turns them into 13 year old girls.

But, getting back to flipping gender expectations, I can think of several body-swap fics in FS fandom that do a lovely job of this, but I also think there have to be other gen or het fics that do a good job of showing how gender isn't the easy assumption that we tend to make it. And how are we defining gender roles anyway? How are we coding male and female these days? One of the reasons I rarely read slash is because I have little interest in seeing a masculine character feminized, in more than the subtle construct way (i.e., I don't want to see John Crichton act like a girl except for in the, "Shit, the whole way I look at the world is suddenly reversed and I'm getting my ass kicked by a girl" kind of way.) I'm not interested in that sort of coding between men, but again, that's my personal preference. However, again, that whole reversal of gendered expectation is interesting and I wonder (not reading a lot of femslash), if a similar thing happens there. Does one of the women become "the man" in the story?

ETA: I do realize that good slash is like any good fic. That characters remain true to what we see, to who they are which doesn't by default make them less masculine or more feminine, but I think I just prefer the male/female dynamic, particularly when reading about sex. Doesn't mean there aren't several slash stories that I've thoroughly enjoyed, but mostly, I'm fairly traditional in my eroticism. You know, even that's not quite true. I think I just need to have a female presence in a story to really engage me, and most slash just doesn't offer that. However, I do love stories about men interacting, and women interacting seperately from their respective partners or from the opposite sex.
Hmmm. Lots to think about.

Comments

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Interesting questions. You certainly put your finger on the element that I loved so very, very much about both the X-Files and Farscape. Also appreciate that Buffy and Veronica can kick ass but are girls -- girlier girls than many of us, even.

As for slash -- I don't know; you're not reading a lot of good slash, are you? SGA fandom is full of deftly characterised Sheppard/McKay where both remain *guys*, and very much so. I'll gladly admit to writing them far more open and vulnerable than they are on screen, but beyond that? I don't think it's that bad. The few stories with weeping and teary declarations I encounter I click-shut instantly; it's no bother.

Femslash...okay, not an expert here, but I don't think that happens. I read my pairings and am willing to give other ships a try, so my view is limited...but I don't believe making one of the girls "the man" is common. Although, come to think of it, I recall Buffy/Faith fiction that had Faith act very, very butch, which always struck me as OOC -- she's a tough girl, but she's no Starbuck, and even Starbuck wears dresses. & ;-)

Of course, can I interest you in Ard? When you speak of gender and gender reversal, that does spring to my mind...

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I've read some good slash (and you're right, it does make a difference and I do know that good slash is like any good writing/good fic, the characters remain true to who they are), but I remain far more interested in reading about sexual relationships between men and women. Shrug. I think it goes back to the desire for women in my stories.

I would be interested in reading Ard...(too many letters:) for this very reason, although I don't really watch Atlantis:) But I like this idea very much.

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

I have nothing clever to say...

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Snort. Thanks for the input dear:) Did you check your inbox?

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

I remain far more interested in reading about sexual relationships between men and women.

Oh, yeah, I get that. Most of my OTPs are het pairings. Right now, the OTP eating my brain's a slashy one, of course...although, question for you & the ages: When you genderswitch one part of a slash pairing, is it het? When you have two genderswitched male characters have sex, is it femslash?

*snicker*

And oh, if you'd like to read Ard but don't much care for SGA (how not? & ;-), I could maybe recomend three episodes for you to watch so you know all the characters?

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Honestly - I find SGA sort of dull( I found SG-1 dull until this season when I had a reason to be invested). It just doesn't hit any of my buttons. I know, I know, fannish blasphemy:) But recc me the three eps anyway, so I know who's who and what's what:)

What is female?

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

However, the tendency in fic to try and make the not-girly women into traditional girls is something I find frustrating and off-putting and it's put me off stories by competent writers.

I'm having flashbacks to the "queer het" discussions, where slashers were claiming that story where a strong woman was sleeping with a strong man was, inherently, "queer".

(And don't get me started on "denormalizing heteronormality".)

For me, Aeryn is difficult to write not because she's a strong woman, but because she's not human. Which, for me, begs the question, Can we actually explore what gender means when we use non-human characters? What *relevance* does Aeryn bring to the discussion? John, oh, yeah, I can see his experiences being pertenant. I'm not sure about Aeryn.

And the same is true for taking the masculine coding, and suddenly making them weepy little girls. So maybe what bothers me is the assumption of weakness, of over-emotionality, of irriational reactions that warp otherwise reasonable characters behaviors into something that turns them into 13 year old girls.

...Oddly enough, this summarizes my reaction to Brokeback Mountain, nearly word for word.

- hg

Re: What is female?

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, this summarizes my reaction to Brokeback Mountain, nearly word for word. My own reactions to that move are tinted so heavily with the West that it explored that I have trouble thinking of it in terms of anything else. If it had been set anywhere else, I can't see my reaction to it being nearly as strong.

For me, Aeryn is difficult to write not because she's a strong woman, but because she's not human. Which, for me, begs the question, Can we actually explore what gender means when we use non-human characters? What *relevance* does Aeryn bring to the discussion? John, oh, yeah, I can see his experiences being pertenant. I'm not sure about Aeryn. Aeryn still looks human. We read her as human, and when we don't, we know the writers are doing a good job. But she's still female, and thus, still a good lens to explore with. For me at least.

I'm having flashbacks to the "queer het" discussions, where slashers were claiming that story where a strong woman was sleeping with a strong man was, inherently, "queer" That I strongly disagree with(that trope:), but I do find it incredibly frustrating when instead of reading the character as written, traditional roles and responses are placed on the character. Alien or not, human or not, female or not, I can't see Aeryn writing love letters or getting weepy over some supposed snub or turning into a housewife or someone secondary to John:) I hate when her characteristics are subverted to make her "weaker" or more "girlish." whether that means more human or more "female."

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Hee.

Recommendation-gathering in progress. I have my own ideas, but it never hurts to ask the sci-fi fen. & ;-)

Re: What is female?

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Aeryn still looks human. We read her as human, and when we don't, we know the writers are doing a good job. But she's still female, and thus, still a good lens to explore with. For me at least.

I kinda took that and ran with it (http://leadensky.livejournal.com/397183.html) - although it ended up being heavy on the questions and light on answers.

- hg

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Wow, this is cool. Lots of thinky thoughts and I have no idea if I'm going to be coherent about them, but we'll give it a shot.

Gender expectations, and beyond that, just life expectations, that there is a path we're all expected to follow (and I'm not that far outside the norm, but man I resist rules for the sake of rules) or the essence of a story that we've all been telling variations of, ever closer to the 'true' story... that is not my way. I don't want those rules, don't want things to be set out for me to follow unthinkingly, I want to have chosen my path because it was the right one, but I do recognise that many others don't view lives and choices and fandom and reading like that. I know there are people out there looking for a true sort of romance and they are going from fandom to fandom hoping that this is the one that will get it right... but that is not my way.

I want flawed characters, I want people failing. I want girls to do things that are not necessarily attractive and certainly unexpected. I want all my characters to challenge something, if not within me, then certainly within their environment. Aeryn fascinates me, not because she's a woman, but because she has been ripped from everything she understood as a result of a choice who's consequences were not clear at the time. She's angry and confused and taking it a day at a time and scared as hell and learning things about herself and stretching her mind to accept and deal with the new environment and the change is fascinating.

It's also why I'm interested in John, and why I think the characters work so well together; ultimately, they are walking side by side in the same journey even though they're constantly a bit beyond each other's reach (John is willing to flail where Aeryn needs to keep the illusion of control for herself,) but they're still going towards the same unnamed goal.

I got into slash, and I love slash, because in the right writer's hands, you have two strong characters and gender becomes irrelevant. You could argue that people will feminize one of them, or get the details of the physicality wrong, or Mary Sue one or the other (and you'd be right) but it comes down to the fact that white men are the default, and in a situation where you have two friends, two men, and you want to explore a deeper connection between these two characters, you can do it without either of them being the 'other'. Or, if you like, you can introduce the notion of alienness or racial difference or age or height or whatever against that sort of more neutral background, and it lets you, as a writer, focus on whatever emotional complexity you are trying to name, and deal with whatever psychological journey you're trying to go on, without the complexity inherent in gender relations. More crudely, you can switch them, top and bottom, to show rather than tell a complicated power dynamic; you've got a physical indicator of arousal without resorting to heat euphemisms... I don't know, it's a different way of approaching a story, it has it's strengths and weaknesses. And, of course, I've written gen and het as well as slash, so, you know, not arguing that one story is better than another really, but my reaction to femmeslash is different than my reaction to m/m slash, and I think male being the default is why; in femmeslash you have two others, which doesn't necessarily cancel out. Though, I've written femmeslash too.

I think I've gotten outside the realm of your discussion now, but I did want to bring up one thing: Firefly, and specifically Serenity the film, had a number of fight scenes and did a really nice job, I thought, of letting the characters be strong in their own ways. Inara, for example (high class call girl that she is) fights hand to hand pretty badly, getting herself thrown across the room and unable to get up. BUT, she knows how to fight with a sword and a crossbow, and ultimately in the fist fight, saves the day by being sneaky and setting off a stunning thing than disarmed the bad guy and let them get away. I don't always identify with Inara, the kick-ass lieutenent in the form of Zoe is more my kind of hero, but those moments when Inara fights back in her own way are moments when I love her almost as much.

[lomer.livejournal.com]

More quick thoughts before running off to rehearsal...

I too hate it when I read about kick ass Starbuck crying for no reason. Sure Starbuck cries in the show, but it's usually for very good reasons and not just that the sight of Lee Adama is so beautiful to her that she sobs in joy.

This also makes me think about slash. People tend to have one guy be the guy and the other be the girl. I used to read stories about The Sentinal a lot and Blair was always the woman in everything he did. Thats another huge pet peeve.

Anyway like I said quick thoughts, but I gotta go! :)

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I think this is absolutely the point of the discussion.

For me, slash is less interesting because of those various reasons (although I doubt that I ever could have articulated the draw and I like how you do, it gives me insight into the appeal that I've never had before). I am interested in the navigation of otherness, interested in how women navigate themselves and their definitions, how men do as well, and how they navigate that together. Adding a sexual dynamic to a male relationship that codes (visually) as straight robs me of something I enjoy. Not always, not universally, but often. I'd rather explore that power dynamic, expore the way men keep sexual feelings towards each other at a distance. But that's all about preference and not about storytelling.

Aeryn fascinates me, not because she's a woman, but because she has been ripped from everything she understood as a result of a choice who's consequences were not clear at the time. She's angry and confused and taking it a day at a time and scared as hell and learning things about herself and stretching her mind to accept and deal with the new environment and the change is fascinating.

It's also why I'm interested in John, and why I think the characters work so well together; ultimately, they are walking side by side in the same journey even though they're constantly a bit beyond each other's reach (John is willing to flail where Aeryn needs to keep the illusion of control for herself,) but they're still going towards the same unnamed goal.

All of this is so true, so exactly right! (Although, while I love Aeryn probably more than any other character, maybe anywhere, my investment would not be the same if she were male. I don't know why. I don't think that's true for everyone, but in her case, it is the fact that she is female that keeps me invested in addition to everything else you mentioned because I'm looking at her through my own lens of being a female in the 21st Century with all the gendered expectations and cultural trappings and my filter of her is through that:)

This is great stuff!! Thank you so much for taking the time to articulate it!!

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

Adding a sexual dynamic to a male relationship that codes (visually) as straight robs me of something I enjoy. Not always, not universally, but often. I'd rather explore that power dynamic, expore the way men keep sexual feelings towards each other at a distance. But that's all about preference and not about storytelling.
I think you just put your finger on the reason why I don't much like slash. I haven't really articulated why I don't like it, but this makes sense to me. I prefer to explore the male/female dynamic, because that's where my sexual orientation leads me, and although I have read some good slash, it really doesn't appeal to me.
I think Aeryn is my favourite female character, because of the reasons you so eloquently cite. I love the relationship between Aeryn and John, because to me it is a dance of equals. They are both bound by their own backgrounds, but are in an environment that is foreign to both, which frees them to explore approaches to the male/female dynamic that they couldn't do before meeting on Moya.
I just watched The Choice yesterday. That last scene just tore my heart out.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Over here from roz_mcclure's --

Adding a sexual dynamic to a male relationship that codes (visually) as straight robs me of something I enjoy. Not always, not universally, but often. I'd rather explore that power dynamic, expore the way men keep sexual feelings towards each other at a distance.

Thanks for articulating that so well. I've often described my preference for character dynamics between men that are "slashy but not slash" -- where there's love but it's not necessarily going to manifest sexually -- and, in fact, doesn't need to in order for it to be an interesting relationship. Of course, that's just a personal preference, and there's a lot of slash I like, and plenty of het and femslash that I don't. I'm also particularly fond of het pairings that play with power dynamics and gender roles (just for example, Wes/Faith really needs to be a body-swap fic --)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

I am interested in the navigation of otherness, interested in how women navigate themselves and their definitions, how men do as well, and how they navigate that together.

That is awesome, and I completely agree, leading me to ponder whether it isn't somewhat of a fandom specific appeal to me. Aeryn, for example: it's important to me that she be female as well, because that combination of fierceness and fear and strength and fallibility in a woman is amazing. Frankly, in John, it's slightly less so, because he seems, somewhat, to be giving into the crazy, where Aeryn won't give more than an inch. (bear in mind, please, that I'm stalled at Enter the Princess at the moment). If Aeryn were male, I would read that as coding for your typical stoic hero, though an actor as good as CB might be able to convince me to buy it. [tangent moment: I'd never heard the marvelous term 'coding' until a week or so ago, and now I'm seeing it *everywhere*! Kewl.]

Now, in Stargate, they have Not Done Well by Sam, and as such, romance feels to me to be a further flattening of her character rather than an added depth, and I resist it on her behalf. A situation that was a nice friendship and might have been all manner of interesting if they'd limited themselves (TPTB, that is) got really tainted by the stereotypes that the canon relationship propogated. IMO, of course. Sam was my 'in' on that show, but she became one of the least interesting characters ultimately. I think they're trying to get back to the character they initially drew this last season, and if that's the goal, I'm all for it.

The thing that became interesting was how easy the interaction was between their two lead males, though, characters that were initially and throughout the season written with individual characteristics, yet created and arguably maintained a complex relationship that went through more of an arc than Stargate is ever likely to admit to. So it was my little rebellion, maybe, to intentionally let myself read all kinds of things into it, it let the show stand up to multiple viewings if you watched for different interactions, and it painted the characters in much more interesting lights than their somewhat cardboard attempts at hooking up their het leads. Still my opinion, natch natch, caveat lector.

But really, it all comes down to psychology for me: what does this character bring out in the other? If they were allowed to the more intimate aspects of romance, what more would they learn about themselves from each other? I am an unabashed multi 'shipper for this reason, and throwing another person into the mix is even more fun: I will believe Sam and Jack, for example, but only if Daniel is there to mediate and soften Jack, make it okay for Sam to be strong, without him, I don't like what I see Sam and Jack bringing out in the other's character.

Farscape, it's hard to say whether the same rule applies, as at this time I'm still in awe of canon, and enchanted with Aeryn and John's chemistry. I could see it taking a lot for me to ship anyone else.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

I'm also particularly fond of het pairings that play with power dynamics and gender roles

I would So Read a fic in which Sam and Jack (Stargate 'verse) had any sort of variation in the power dynamics and gender roles, but it's canon that he outranks her and that she always follows orders. Lame.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Even if he outranks her, there have to power dynamics that are possible - intelligence, knowledge, capability:) I'm just sayin'. Of course, this is part of why the military stuff doesn't interest me much.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Interesting -- I can't comment on SG1 specifically, but I do think that even within a set rank system, there is room to play with power dynamics. I mean, Mal's in charge and Zoe always follows orders, but it's not a cut-and-dried relationship (and I'm not even thinking of M/Z as a sexual ship). But there are certainly possibilities that come to mind for the Sam/Jack pairing -- what if Sam gets promoted above him, or what if somehow she gets put in charge? What if there IS an order she wouldn't follow, and what would it be? Or, from a purely 'shippy POV, what if she's completely different in the bedroom than she is at work?

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

(Hee - Keep going, keep going! The Look at the Princess trilogy is about 20 minutes too long, but has my second favorite tag ever!! And it's important to the arc). It also puts you that much closer to both Won't Get Fooled Again and the Liars, Gun and Money three parter, and the marvelous season ender.

And in defense of John, he doesn't have any resources to battle against the craziness around him. He's not that guy. He's trying his damndest, but...

And yeah, everything that you say about Stargate makes absolute sense, not only the characters stuff but the pairings, the interaction.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

've often described my preference for character dynamics between men that are "slashy but not slash" -- where there's love but it's not necessarily going to manifest sexually Oh absolutely! This interests me profoundly!!

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I've written one m/m slash story, I did it entirely by accident ( the characters were just supposed to meet and bond) and I'm fairly certain that this was one of the few circumstances that anything could have happened between those characters as I had written them. I've written plenty of stories where people commented about how the main male characters SHOULD be doing it -- and, since that's how people tend to react to the source material, I feel like I'm doing something right :).

Now I've written fairly extensively (outside fandom) about both male and female characters who were gay or bi-, but that really seemed like an entirely different issue. It was a part of their identity/character/behavior that was important to the story, but not necessarily "the point" -- each of those stories actually focused on platonic friendships, with romances of any stripe being secondary.

I hasten to say, I'm just talking about how I write and not generalizing to het or slash or queer lit in general.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Exactly, to both of you. It may actually be that someone with teh skillz has done this, but I'd need to be rec'd it, maybe. Or find it from a multi-shipping author I already love.

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

Here via a link from coffeeandink.

What I've found with Veronica Mars, is that even though she is traditionally feminine, she still gets twisted into something she's not. In fanfic, she's turn into this weepy 13 year old, or need to be rescued/comforted by a guy. The Veronica I'm familiar with is more likely to be sarcastic and vengeful when she's hurt, not turn into a weeping helpless mess. So a certain type of femininity is getting reproduced everywhere--in het and m/m slash, and it's turning characters OOC. I've not noticed it in f/f slash, but I only dip an occassional toe into that area.

There was also this fanfic I read that turned a flamboyant, expressive, insecure male character into a confident, reserved, and smug character. It was OOC. So for some characters, traditional masculinity doesn't fit them. It was in a m/f fanfic. I suspect that if this were a slash fic, then he'd turn out to be the "feminine" one.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean -- it is frustrating to see that het often can be used to reinforce gender/power roles (often more conservatively in fic than in canon -- I've noticed this in the Jossverse, though it seems from what you're saying that SG may be the opposite) -- I think b/c het often is used this way that many people assume it is always/only used this way (or if it's not, it's somehow not-really-het)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

I actually, you know, I wouldn't say I feel that way about het in general, and I don't necessarily feel like it's all the fans doing either. Specifically in the Stargate 'verse, I am very curious about Sam paired with any of the men on her team besides Jack; it's the dynamic within that 'ship that irks me no end, and it's based in canon and probably supported in fanfic, with the odd embellishment (I may have read the wrong fic, though). It's coming from what we've seen in canon, though. Makes sense to extrapolate it that way, I guess that's what I'm expecting.

While I haven't gotten into Buffy or Angel, I've loved Joss's Firefly, and adored the canon marraige between Zoe and Wash, but I disliked intensely the Inara/Mal ship, because it hit one of my pet peeves in the assumption that I would buy a deep, meaningful attraction between two people who can barely talk to each other. Meh. Now, SIMON and Mal I think are very interesting... And pretty. And, they have an interesting way of alternating really sweet conversations with passionate arguments leading to blows half the time.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I love canon Mal/Inara to distraction and this --

a deep, meaningful attraction between two people who can barely talk to each other.

. . .describes a dynamic that I actually love; they're both capable of being very articulate, just not saying the right things to each other. However, I'm not gonna argue about Simon/Mal, as, when watching Serenity in the theater, I had to be physically restrained from yelling "KISS HIM!" at these two on several occasions. (What, I didn't say I never slash :).

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

What I've found with Veronica Mars, is that even though she is traditionally feminine, she still gets twisted into something she's not. That's interesting and not that surprising. One of my favorite aspects of Veronica (healthy or not) is her rage. The way things get funneled through that.

I suspect I'd be just as pissed off about the reversal you mentioned as it's opposite:)

I wonder where that representation of femininity comes from though, especially in shows where a strong female lead is a draw. I understand the need to make the character more like the author, to soften harsh characteristics, but some of it seems more like pulling these characters into pre-defined notions of femininity than even Mary Suing them.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I disliked intensely the Inara/Mal ship, because it hit one of my pet peeves in the assumption that I would buy a deep, meaningful attraction between two people who can barely talk to each oth

Exactly. I could never accept a ship where the male lead continues to refer to his "romantic interest" as a whore.

But I don't get Mal/Simon either:) Although I've written it in an oh so fucked up way:) Mostly, I'm not interested in Mal's sex life. I'm interested in his relationship, but I don't care where he gets his jollies:)

I think so.

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

I've written both "two genderswitched male characters have sex" and "one genderswitched male character has sex with a non-genderswitched male character" and I consider them femslash and het, respectively. If the body parts are girly, it isn't manslash. :-)

If the characters know they have been switched, I am more likely to describe it as "genderfuck", because there you get a quasi-slash dynamic where Still Guy A *knows* Former Guy B used to be a guy, but now he's a girl, so the body parts are het but the minds are slash. However, the femslash was femslash because it was a universe where the characters were born women rather than men, so they had no reference point to understand themselves as men, though we the readers knew.

And I, too, prefer a pairing with a woman in it someplace... but I'm more emotionally drawn to the male characters (not because I prefer men to women but because the archetypes that draw me are most often made male in media). So my fetish of choice tends to be the genderswap; I find very little slash fic to actually be sexually hot, though the emotional resonances can totally push my buttons. Two men together just doesn't do for me what having a woman in there someplace does (I'm also bi myself, which probably affects that.)

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I think, in Aeryn's case, it wasn't an immediate desire to have a baby, but the circumstances of potentially having one coupled with her own issues surrounding family. But then, I was pretty happy with how that storyline played out. Less so with Scully.

And I'm not entirely sure that separating strong independent women from the concept of women who would like to have children completely tracks. Or even women who find themselves suddenly having children. Well, you know, generally not suddenly.

(In terms of how the media uses this device, I admit to equal displeasure with the idea that all women want to reproduce, want to have kids, even if they've never expressed an interest. But it's generally the device that bothers me. I'm not at all opposed to strong female - or male- characters becoming parents. It's an interesting, if tricky, dimension to the character).

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

The pregnancies mentioned occurred late in their respective show's tenure. So to me, it's almost like the whole "our marriage is falling apart, so let's have a baby to fix it" mindset.

Hmmm. Well, granted Farscape was only four seasons, but I'm not entirely sure that the end of S3 counts as late in the tenure, storywise. And family was always a theme, the way it's made, shaped, structured and destroyed. And children, families, reproduction had always been an issue (certain for John Crichton, who wanted a family, who wanted his nuclear, suburban lifestyle).

X-Files, yeah, the pregancy itself came late in the game, and many elements of the storyline up to that point were immensely frustrating, but the writers set up in Season 1 that Scully thought about children, thought about families, and they carried that theme out.

But agreed on the device as just that, a device.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

If you watch SG-1 it must be curious to see Ben Browder and Claudia Black together again on screen.

Hee - I started watching SG-1 this season to have them back on my screen:) And so far, I've been enjoying it immensely;) Particularly CBs character. Vala is such a radical departure from Aeryn and it's been tremendous fun. It's actually gotten me interested in SG-1 which nothing prior to that had been able to do:) And well, Ben Browder is just awfully nice to watch do anything:)

I probably didn't even get this list right, so I've probably lost all credibility now.

No worries. Credibility is totally in tact. And I agree with you in many respects, just not entirely in this specific show:)

Maybe the next time I have the opportunity to watch it again, I will think of you, how much you enjoyed it, and sit down in front of the TV.

I hope you do!! But if not, I totally get the YMMV thing:) S4 did go off the rails somewhat, but also produced some of my favorite episodes from the series.

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

I also like Veronica's rage. One of the aspects I'm fascinated by is how it was a coping mechanism, and how it could potentially blindside her. (I mean that Veronica can get too caught up in vengeance.)

I wonder where that representation of femininity comes from though, especially in shows where a strong female lead is a draw. I understand the need to make the character more like the author, to soften harsh characteristics, but some of it seems more like pulling these characters into pre-defined notions of femininity than even Mary Suing them.

I'm not sure where this representation of femininity is coming from. With Veronica, I could see how a fan could argue that her rage doesn't drive her or she's gotten over it, but not to the point where she needs someone to save her from emotional distress.

I wonder if it's got something to do with a certain heteronormative ideal of what a romantic relationship is, and what the roles are, and who is supposed to enact them. So I think it's less a case of Mary Sue, so much as some people having a cookie cutter idea of what a relationship is, and trying to make the characters they like fit a certain mold.

Then again, I have read that type of OOC characterization in genfic, specifically in Harry Potter fandom. There were stories where Harry would cry and be emo, and another character would comfort/rescue him. But, I'm not sure whether it's the same thing, or something entirely different. (The bad genfic seems to be enacting an abandoned orphan archetype.)

So there's something about that particular OOC characterization that resonates with a certain set of people, but I'm not sure what it is. I also wonder if it's about the relationship dynamics, or related to individual character.

[llorelei.livejournal.com]

(Here from metafandom.)

I will believe Sam and Jack, for example, but only if Daniel is there to mediate and soften Jack, make it okay for Sam to be strong,

This made me think of a threesome involving a troubled married couple and their therapist. *g*

I'll have to agree that this is a matter of preference (not to mention one's personal view of the characters/pairings - I suspect my Sam is fairly different from your Sam, for instance, based on your small description). Because the image of Daniel/therapist figure/whomever between a pairing, more or less guiding them trough and making it okay, renders the whole thing, well, dull as hell.

I like Sam and Jack for the same reason you seem to dislike Mal/Inara: they have feelings for each other but are utter crap at talking. It's part of the tension, something that they need to work on and that makes the relationship interesting (for me, of course), along with the power dynamics that I believe Sam is perfectly able to solve on her own outside the military world.

But if one believes that communication problems precludes love/meaningful attraction, then yes, relationships with this sort of tension won't work for that person.

[m-ho.livejournal.com]

I get a sense of a subversive degenderizing movement in well-written fanfiction, where instead of gender role reversal, there is no gender, just humanity. Many well-written PWP fanfics, of any flavor beyond the simply erotic, peel gender away from genitalia and human interaction, moving the focus of all the tension and drama of sex, presumably conventionally tied up in gender codification and politics, onto the selves of the characters. The reader is transported to this unreality where the self is defined on its own merits.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I think that's often true, because what most of the writers are trying to explore is what's making these two people come together, what's inherently interesting about them having sex. And it's also a writing challenge, how to make it erotic and not simply cold, or clinical or laughable in a bad way. It's drawing those connections, and it's far hotter to feel that longing for another self, then just hearing about the parts slipping and sliding.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

I think that yes, definitely I can't get past it, I never ever can, despite liking Inara and Mal and Sam and Jack as individuals, and adoring the idea that friendships could grow there and be absolutely fascinating to me...

I'm certainly not going to bash anyone else's kinks, be they talking dirty or UST or inability to communicate or whatever, certainly not, but you've made me think about why it so screamingly doesn't work for me when it clearly does for other people. I've been talking here to friends so I haven't felt the need to clarify, but perhaps it bears stating: I enjoyed Sam and Jack up until they stalled out, relationship-wise. Growing attraction? Sure. Obstacles? Interesting. Not talking for years? Not so much. I lost interest and started to resent how it restricted the characters. Do it or don't, but indecisiveness does not belong in either Sam or Jack (or Mal or Inara). John and Aeryn I liked because it felt like they always were deciding and reevaluating and then freaking out or breaking up, but forward or backward, they were always dancing.

Here's what I got: There is a television dogma that says if you have a lead male and a lead female in the room together, there must be UST somehow. It comes second to the theory that all television shows ought to have a 34-45 year old white male hero in it. These things aren't enough to stop me watching, as it is entertainment and I'm capable of suspending disbelief as much as the next person, but it does mean I'm less willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I want to be convinced.

If you have two people standing in a room, looking at each other, and their mouths are saying 'don't want to talk about this' and their body language is saying 'resist, hold back, no!' and the storyline is going on around them about something else and it's exciting and stuff is happening and developing and changing, and you're telling me that these are two brave, decisive people, independent and emotionally intelligent... I'm going to lose patience with them standing around being boring. Talk to me about how Inara uses love and attraction like a weapon, and is passive aggressive with Mal. I loved her teaching him how to swordfight in her underwear, that was awesome. See Mal or Jack expressing themselves perfectly clearly about emotions with their best friends. See Sam and Jack exchanging amazing communicative glances a la Jack and Daniel when she's in a hand to hand knife fight, or Daniel's at the wrong end of an execution squad. That kind of friendship is so interesting to me, but canon says to me that later, Jack will be mean to them, and Sam will whimper and look doe-eyed, and Daniel will push and ask and challenge and be fearless. I think that makes Sam less interesting, I think she lost something in the bargain. If those two reactions had been reversed? And Jack's best friend had heard the put down open mouthed and given a mental middle finger and walked the other way, but Sam had gone over to the house and had a conversation she didn't let him shut down? That would have renewed my interest. But when you've got a strong character, who's going to push and be mean and hurtful, you'd better have someone who'll push back; Sam lets herself be a pushover a little too much in the name of loyalty, and Inara seems to be rather stunned all of a sudden that sex is playing into it and runs away.

I guess it's a two strikes rule for me, where others need three: If the words aren't there and the body language isn't there it isn't enough that the director puts them in a two shot, I'll read the actors and the writers telling me the connection isn't being made.

[executrix.livejournal.com]

I really, really hate the Mal/Inara ship precisely because they're so horrible to each other, but I really like Mal/Kaylee precisely because they're not. But then if there's anybody in the Jossverse who is intended as a role model (...and I rather doubt there is...) it surely is not Mal.