Still thinking about role models

[itsallovernow]

So many of the responses I got yesterday seemed to suggest that having a sense of place and purpose, of ability has more to do with inherent sense of self, with parental modeling (both good and bad) then with societal expectations.

I think I agree with that (and certainly would never argue anyone's personal experience), but I think that it's also very easy to ignore the societal pressures that result in personal behavior. I would certainly agree with the arguement that having parents who believe in you and your abilties will trump societal pressures every time (well, much of the time), and that much of the benefit of the feminist movement was having those personal and familial supports reinforced in the outside world, or alternately that the sudden lack of choice, or increase in pressure to conform, were such a shock to many people coming from a sort of cocoon of capability that they worked that much harder to make sure that they got to do what they'd always assumed they could.

This surprises me both more and less than it should. And I find it equally interesting that in families where there are clear gender role differentiations, frequently the "sexism"-for wont of a better word- comes out in subtle ways, or is ignored in favor of the whole, "My children can, shall and will succeed" thing.

Thanks to everyone who weighed in, and I continue to welcome your reflection on the subjects of feminism and role models and societal structures and dynamics.

Comments

[raithen.livejournal.com]

thanks for opening the discussion.

you know, it's interesting, because I do not doubt that I can do whatever I want, and I know I do not NEED men in my life to succeed, yet I value male friends a great deal. And the prospect of losing the most significant man in my life terrifies me, and the prospect of not finding men I want to spend time with, be intimate with, who also want to be intimate with and spend time with me also saddens me. Yet I do not think this changes the fact that I KNOW I can make it, nor does it undermine the intense value of my female friends.

Feminism is hard, but I am so glad for it ;).

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I don't think feminism should (or really does) discount the value of both sexes. I value the men in my life, value their perspective and their presence and their "guyness", and that has nothing to do with my belief in access, fairness or equality:)

[cofax7]

Speaking only for myself. The thing about social pressure wasn't that I felt obliged to "act like a girl". I honestly couldn't. I was bad at it (I only started being comfortable wearing makeup in my 30s, and it is still confined to foundation [damn the acne!] and lipstick; everything else is too damned much work), and I was lazy. Or bored by it. I didn't dress right or use makeup or learn to flirt (still pretty much can't) or wear skirts or heels or do whatever it is that appropriately-gender-normed girls are supposed to do (I'm not really clear on that).

Despite this, I did have friends who didn't blame me for not doing the girly thing; because in any community there will always be people outside the mainstream, and that's where I found myself (in high school, anyway). I don't know what I would have done if I didn't have that support from family and friends to reassure me that I actually existed even if I didn't wear makeup, dress more fashionably, stop reading SF/fantasy, act less intelligent in class, kickass on tests, take your pick. Possibly I would have been less happy, or more happy, or happy or unhappy in different ways than I was.

This is not to say that one cannot be independent and a feminist and all while simultaneously having fantastic makeup and tall pink boots (::raises an eyebrow at Thea::); but I wasn't capable of it, and still find it too damned much work.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

This is not to say that one cannot be independent and a feminist and all while simultaneously having fantastic makeup and tall pink boots (::raises an eyebrow at Thea::); but I wasn't capable of it, and still find it too damned much work.

I think one of the things that this wave of the feminist movement has allowed us is the ability to self-define beyond the stereotype, to be a feminist who wears lipstick and tall boots, as well as one who doesn't find those things relevant:) However, I don't think it was an easy path there.

[raithen.livejournal.com]

and I'm not sure the path is smooth even yet....

[jenlev.livejournal.com]

my mother and her mother grew up very far from the norm (and my mother was born in the 20's) of societal expectations. and both my parents encouraged my sisters and myself to avoid conforming to those expectations. i still get (although i shouldn't) astonished at how many of those old expectations are perpetuated.

i remember the petition that all the students and the teachers signed in 7th grade to demand that 'girls' didn't have to wear dresses to school. gah, looking back on that boggles my mind.

i once got stopped and chastised by a teaching in 6th grade because i was wearing jeans. i was going with my parents to an anti-war demonstration after school.

sorry to natter on so.... i guess this is my convoluted way of saying that even growing up in a family that during the 60's wasn't traditional, and encouraged feminism, didn't preclude hitting up against a wall of paternalistic traditions that still make me a bit nuts.

thank you for your thoughtful post. *hugs*

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Not nattering at all. This is the kind of thing I'm looking for!!

[jenlev.livejournal.com]

oh good! ok, so then there was the time i was a senior in college. i went to a graduation party and was told by the male volunteer bartender that i would not be served because i was wearing pants. er, that was in the late 70's, so i basically gave him a WTF response and got served anyway. grrrr.