Hap has made me think, and has caused me to rant about romance novels.

[itsallovernow]

The beautiful and fabulous haphazardmethod had a dream that I was dancing around a bookstore, ecstatic that my favorite porn novelist's new work had come out.

This makes me giggle for a variety of reasons. Also, it's weirdly appropriate because I've been on a hunt to find published porn that's as good as the kind of ficcy porn I can find online. And I have to say that the online community is winning. Now, obviously there are advantages to porn in fic because the characters are established, the scene set, and all of the buttons are set up, ready to be pushed.

However, there are many, many things I dislike about the conventions of romance novels that may be influencing my preferences here (and I dislike these same conventions when they show up in fic). Be forewarned, this entry contains many, many expletives, including a repeated use of the word fuck.

1. The experienced - and frighteningly virile - older man and the virgin. Real life, a 35 year old boinking a 17 year old is a lot closer to statuatory rape then the sexy. And it catches me up, pisses me off.

2. See above, and then add the required scene where the heroine loses her virginity. It's either far too fabulous, or far too clean, or just a weird mix of things in the middle. I'd think that for the heroines of novels set in a time without washing machines, that blood on the sheets would be a little mortifying, a little bit frustrating, because dude, who has to wash those things?

3. Being saved. God help me from this one - hero or heroine needing to be redeemed through sex, through unexpected love. It could be good, could be compelling, and often, it's just stupid. The heroines end up needing to go all vulnerable and squooshy, relying on this new man to make them womanly, to show them that they have feelings, or to protect them from the evil Snively Whiplash in their lives. Or he hero, damaged by another woman, being redeemed by the virginal - yet really, really good in bed - heroine who teaches him to wuv again.

4. Dumb writing. Not bad writing, but dumb writing. I've also seen this mentioned before (most recently, I think, on Sara Donati's blog), but throbbing member sounds like a disease, not a dick. And portal of womanhood. Call them what they are, or don't call them anything if you can't bear to break the flow of the prose to say cock or cunt. Again, conventions not withstanding, just using the word sex. It's far less distracting.

5. And to counter those words. To those novelists who consider themselves a little edgier, particularly Thea Devine, whose book I was suckered into buying this weekend because the cover had a picture of a peach that was really a very nicely shaped ass. Bite me. Just because you're not afraid to call it fucking instead of using a euphamism does not mean you're describing good sex, that you're writing with an eye to the erotic, to turning on your reader. Because the idea of this rock hard man being repeatedly mounted - and getting it up every time - just makes me laugh. You fooled me initially by the diction, and shame on me for not reading more than a few sentences.

6. The softness of the heroines. They just don't ever seem capable of finding their ass with both hands, let alone surviving on their own for more than 30 seconds. And they cry. A lot. See earlier posts on crying. There's no crying in baseball, there should be no crying in porn.

7. If you're going to use the word pussy - and I say this to the writers of "erotica" as Romance Novelists rarely use it - be sure it isn't going to make me laugh. Or wince. When rubberneck uses the word pussy in porn, I buy it. But then, she's an extraordinary writer and can do things with diction and alliteration that very few people can. "Parsing her first taste of pussy" will always be one of my favorite lines, and one of the best uses ever of that word.

I need to think about how to articulate the other conventions that bug me. So, there'll be a Part II. Now, keep in mind that there are fabulous writers out there who fall into the Romance genre. Jennifer Crusie writes damn good novels, and the heroines have sex that's funny and real and hot. Bertrice Small writes good sex, and often has compelling heroines, but I have to wade through 500 pages of historical detail to get to those places. I should be more, um, interested in the storyline, but as she tends to use the same storyline repeatedly, I am justifiable impatient. I've read two of Judith Ivory's books that I liked, and one that bored me, and I have to say that she's one of the few historical romance writers that has made me want to actually read the book all the way through. I like Amanda Quick's writing, and I like that her heroines are interesting, usually a little spinsterish, a little daring. But again, she tends to recycle her plots, leaving me looking for something new.

And all of this makes it sound like I read far more Romance than I do. And also, neglects to metion the book I bought by someone, Susan Johnson? maybe, that I decided to take back to the bookstore and get a refund because it sucked so completely and was sold in a trade paperback!

Comments

[haphazardmethod.livejournal.com]

Okay, now I think it was less a dream than that I sensed a disturbance in the force...

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee hee:) Clearly!

[scrubschick.livejournal.com]

snigger

[sunshinercj.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with just so much of what you said. Every attempt I've made to read something pornish (that hasn't been online) makes me giggle, which is unlikely the desired effect.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee - yeah, giggling in a good way, yes. But usually, it's in the what were they thinking way.

[searose.livejournal.com]

Hee, so what do you think of the writing talents of Dara Joy?

Sometimes I can slip my brain into neutral and coast through any porn scene. Other times I have to wonder about males with no worries about premature ejaculation or flagging erections. (Who are these creatures in the text? My sympathies for real men, here.) And no woman ever shifts and makes the guy go, "Ouch! Ease up there."

Last thought: I'm always stunned at how agile folks in text can be with their lower legs and ankles hampered by clothing. Kick. The Pants. Off.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee, so what do you think of the writing talents of Dara Joy?

I've yet to read her? Is this something I should rectify?

And dude, exactly!! I go into the books wanting to enjoy the porn, wanting to like the characters and be pleased that they're getting lucky, but sometimes, argh. I'm all for the fantasy element, it's not that so much as the stereotypes and conventions that go along with those fantasies.

And hee - the pants!! All of those clothes were complicated, and just take the time to get 'em off:) All clothes are complicated:) If I read porn with the pants around the ankles, I want the ramifications, the struggling and lurching and the fleeting "this was a really bad idea" thoughts!

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Also? I looooooove that icon!

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

I had a dream last night that involved the male cast of JAG and a fridge. I think I want President Bush to come back to my dreamscape — that was moderately less disturbing.

Funny, I was talking to ELL this weekend about how amazed I was by romance writers' ability not to get tired of their own tropes. There was also some discussion about calling an erect penis a cock and how the words "garden of her feminity" should probably be banned in that combination from the English language.

Thea Devine is scary and Susan Johnson once named a character "Sinjin St. John." Anyone who doesn't understand why that's wrong (if hysterical) shouldn't be reading, let alone writing romances set in the Regency. My fav Regency writer at the moment is Eloisa James. She does a fairly good job of quasi-realistic (at least, y'know, people get tired) sex and historical detail.

Mostly, online is hands down over published. BTW, ask ELL about Angel-sex in Sharon Shinn's novels, she was talking about being thisclose to wanting to write fanfic and I want to push her over the edge. 8D

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I was fooled with both of those authors by the covers of their books. They must have damned fine publicists, that's all I have to say. I'd rather read about pulsing flowers of womanhood. The Susan Johnson book is the one I was trying to take back then. It's still, unsurprisingly, in the back of my car!

And Eloisa James, huh? Okay. I'll try her. And Angel- sex as in Angel the vampire, or as in angels with flappy wings?

[fourteenlines.livejournal.com]

once named a character "Sinjin St. John."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*deep breath*

BWAHAHA!

*choke*

*giggle

[elishavah.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've mentioned lately that I love you. Truly, madly, and so, so deeply that the FCC would die of blushing.

P.S. -- Should I just give you a call Wednesday when I finally find my way to my hotel?

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee!! I love you too baby:) The FCC can bite me;)

Yep, absolutely! I'll e-mail you my cell number!

[elliejane.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting to read your take on romance books. I treat them like sexy snack food. Read 'em once, then give 'em away (mostly Mills and Boon). I appear to have a sappy nature, and enjoy some relatively angst free, guaranteed happy endings. Once in a while I'll find a book that I get very fond of and will keep and re read. Doesn't happen often.

The underlying theme in many, in the end, cracks me up:

"Boy and girl meet; they piss each other off or cannot be togther for some major reason; they get the serious electric hots for each other; then put off doing the deed as long as poss; DO IT; have an awful misunderstanding and split up; get back togther forever with a cherry on top."

Alot of it I don't mind, it's the set up, it's the trade off, and it gets me my serotonin filled happy ending but a couple of things do grate:

1. "cannot be together for some major reason"
Half the time this reason is so contrived that the fact it's purely a plot point screams from the room tops and wants you to tell 'em to get over it already. You know why it's there, and it doesn't convince you at all. In fact you're waiting on the exposition before you finish the first chapter.

2.When the language does dance about a bit.
Call it a cock or a dick and I'm happy. It doesn't happen THAT often, and so I get ridiculously appreciative when it does. Call it a throbbing member and I think of Thea. No, really! I think you mentioned it a while back in this same context and every time I read it I think "What? Really throbbing? As in pulsating? Gee, I gotta see me one of those, does it glow as well??" And the word penis just makes me laugh, sorry.

I'm totally with you on point number 7. And I wish there was a good decent word I could work with as a euphamism for female genetalia, but apart from the general *sex* term, I've yet to find one that doesn't trip me up and make me stub my brain. The word pussy makes no sense to me at all, and the *c* word my psyche processes as a curse word.

By the way, I used to read these books back when I was in my teens. Then started reading again a few years ago. And may I say, BOY have they changed in terms of sexual content. Before, the literary equivelant of crashing waves or a sunset used to happen. Now every one of these books that I have snacked on has relatively graphic sex. I'm hardly objecting (although I sometimes wonder if any old grannies have been shocked!) but does it illustrate how times change.(Unless I was reading the wrong books back then...or the right ones when you think of the age I was!)

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I actually don't mind the basic premise of the novels, the get together and the longing. It's the other conventions that bother me. Everyone needs some happy endings, some sap and some sex and some fantasy. I certainly do:)

I didn't much read the Regencies or the Harlequin's, though, so I don't feel like the sex has gotten more graphic or more risque (or maybe I'm not reading the right novels:)

I've yet to find one that doesn't trip me up and make me stub my brain. The word pussy makes no sense to me at all, and the *c* word my psyche processes as a curse word.

It's a tough one, although, I do feel like coopting both of those words has been rewarding for me personally as a writer. It was liberating to use cunt in the sexual sense, to reread the passage and feel the impact of the word. But, no, it's not a given, and vagina is worse than penis in terms of something you want to write down in an erotic setting:) The only appropriate place for that word is in the Gyno's office and in sex ed:)

[jenlev.livejournal.com]

bwahahaha! :::falls down laughing:::

i'd read some romance many years ago when a friend made me promise to read some if she read some scifi. she got the better end of the deal. i'm very certain that the writing hereabouts in LJ-land is *much* better than a lot of what i see on the bookshelf of the local store (scifi secton or not).

and you've made very good points about how the characters are turned into cartoon cut-outs. it makes me nuts. i gather that there are some good writers in that genre...so i don't want to generalize; but i didn't enjoy what i read.

er, something more about fanfic; even if the characters and the situation are well known to the reader...if the writing is not good, the story not well imagined then it will still fall flat. good writing is fabulous no matter what the subject. which makes me even more grateful for the great stuff hereabouts. so thank you for your great writing once again. *bg*

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Oh, you are a dear:)

I think there are some good writers in the genre, and I think that often it's one that gets too little attention because it's a huge niche. I think I don't have a wide enough range of exposure to tell you who too many of them are. Sadly, I tend to remember the one's I've loathed far more than the ones I've enjoyed.

[ropo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Thea Devine. I was all excited, like, 'whooo, real published porn!' but ended up extremely disappointed. Just lame. LAME!

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Exactly!! A whole slew of false promises that brought me nothing but annoyance!

DIRTY!

[fourteenlines.livejournal.com]

I went browsing in the erotica section at Powell's this weekend, and first I have to say:

SCARY.

Most of it seemed geared toward kinky men; ie, with dirty pictures on the front.

I did pick up a copy of "best women's erotica" or some such nonsense, but:

1. I started to hyperventilate, and not from teh sexy. It's funny that I used to have no compunction about reading smutty MSR in public libraries, but freaked about reading a sexy book in a bookstore, and

2. The sex wasn't bad, but it wasn't good, either. It wasn't the-best-erotic-fanfic good. It just...wasn't. It's sad.

I enjoy Jennifer Crusie's novels, but she's the only "romance" novelist I've tried. I find the other parts of her stories charming, and though the sex isn't as graphic as I'm used to finding in fanfic (not much real physical description) what she does write (much more description of sensations), she does very well.

A note on terminology. It's true, most of the time I prefer "cock" to "dick," unless a guy is narrating, and usually then mainly in referring to it when it's soft.

I, too, have trouble with names for female sex organs. Both "pussy" and "cunt" tend to pull me out of a story, mainly because I'm so used to them as insults rather than parts of the body. (Although, like you mention, when either is done right it can be okay. I just don't find them to be sexy words.) I think this is one of the reasons I don't like "dick," also. Now, I've recently been reading a series which frequently uses "snatch," which I'm starting to like a little better. It still sounds dirty - doesn't it all? - but it doesn't have quite the "insult value" that the other two do. Still, until I started reading this series, where it kept cropping up, it just wasn't common enough to stop me from being pulled out of the story. (I think "core" is acceptable maybe once in a story - maybe - if the writing's good. "Sex" is fine but it seems so generic, which is funny.)

And, while I'm at it, I'm a little tired of "clit." I know there isn't really any good substitute, and it's better than "clitoris," but HOT DAMN, PEOPLE. It isn't really a sexy word, to me.

But, yeah, euphemisms are worse. MUCH WORSE.

"Penis" should only ever be used, ever ever, in a sex scene, if it's being narrated by Benton Fraser, RCMP. And it's kinda goofy even then.

Re: DIRTY!

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

"Penis" should only ever be used, ever ever, in a sex scene, if it's being narrated by Benton Fraser, RCMP. And it's kinda goofy even then.

*giggle*

I had a long conversation with electricland Saturday night about naming practices in Far-smut: when it's John's pov it's dick, when I'm narrating it's cock but Aeryn Sun tends to call a hard-on an erect penis. 8D

Re: DIRTY!

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee - yeah, sadly, the stuff marketed as erotica is often not much sexier. Sometimes, but not often. It just lacks the other conventions, which sometimes works in it's favor:)

And yeah, I have the same reaction, looking at dirty books in plain sight, my cheeks flaming red:) Hee.

However, spurred on by Searose, I bought a book yesterday that had a cover that embarrassed me more than anything labeled erotica had. I in fact asked for a gift receipt so the nice woman wouldn't think I was buying a romance novel with a half nake man on the cover.

And hee - the vocabulary really is funny isn't it? For instance, I just can't imagine using the word snatch in a sexual context:) It's just too, i don't know, nicknamey:) And yeah, clit is also a tough one. Because Clitoris just makes me think of Shirley Valentine, but I sure as hell ain't writing "pearl" or "nubbin" or "button" oy. We need better words!

However, all of that being said, if the writing is good, the vocabulary rarely throws me.

[scrubschick.livejournal.com]

I don't read much that's actually classified as 'romance'. The Eve Dallas books are about my limit, really, and the sex isn't explicit there. Sadly.

However, I agree completely that there are conventions in erotic fic writing that just turn me off, which is probably not the writer's intent. The use of botanical euphemisms particularly acts as a literary cold shower for me. 'Nub', 'nubbin', 'flower', 'blooming', 'bud'... Then there are words like 'lave' and 'ministrations'... I'm unapologetic in the opinion that these words should never, ever be used when describing a sex scene.

I'm an old and intolerant woman, admittedly. But I can write better smut than most of what's out there. Oddly, 'cunt' has never offended me, tho I know it bothers many people and so am probably overly cautious in its use. But I would much rather see 'cunt' and 'cock' in a fic than 'hot, wet fist' and 'member'.

Some day, I will post my 'scrubs rants about sex scenes' opus, but for now, I spam yours. ;)

hugs!

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee - no, no, Scrubs. Please please post your opus!!!

[sunshinercj.livejournal.com]

I thought of you when I read this article.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=583&e=1&u=/nm/20041214/od_nm/odd_literature_sex_dc

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee - Tom Wolfe has been on a slew of programs lately talking about the research he had to do to write about sex among the college age set:) It just cracks me up, largely because the book is supposed to be about how sex is just assumed, how it's not really sexy.

Hee:) Thanks for the link!!

[operalover.livejournal.com]

I'm loving this thread -- and it pulled to mind a section of a Dana Stabenow mystery I read over the weekend. I love the female lead, but this time we get the review of the sex scene from the male POV and I'm going to quote a section because I love it -- not much erotica, just a great way to tell you something happened:

"He knew he must have slept at some point during the night, but for the life of him he couldn't remember when he'd had the time. Kate had been like a force of nature, overwhelming, relentless, inexorable. "Here," she'd said, and dutifully he'd gone there. "Harder," she'd said, and obediently he had stroked or sucked or thrust harder. "Again," she had said, and the good soldier had done as he was told. There had been no escape, even if he'd been inclined toward it, which parts of him most definitely weren't. He looked down to see if anything remained between his legs. He was immensely relieved to find that there was, although he wasn't certain there ws any fluid left in his body."

I giggled at the last two sentences. Some six paragraphs later he's in the bathroom: "He checked his crotch again in the mirror just to be sure -- one cock, two balls, yep, all present and accounted for. He even felt himself up to make sure they weren't a mirage." Guess they had a rough night of sex from his perspective!

I read mysteries for the story (most of the time) however they are always enhanced by a good 'ship.

Thanks for starting this thread.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Hee:) This book sounds like something I'd enjoy:)